Posthuman Condition

Yan Pat-to x Joseph Lee: Exploring and Developing Creativity

Speakers: Yan Pat-to (Yan), Joseph Lee (Lee)

Moderator: Bernice Chan (Chan)

Transcript editor: Crystal Yip

Yan:

Speaking of R&D (research and development), I think there is no best model for it. It depends on whether it can be tailored to individual works. I am going to talk about two models from my experience. The first model takes scriptwriting as the starting point. When I visited Berlin in 2014, I saw a future-themed artwork at a museum, and it inspired me to write a five-minute piece akin to a performance-lecture. In 2016, I was a featured playwright at the Theatertreffen Stückemarkt by Berliner Festspiele, so I refined the piece for the showcase. With the rapid development of AI, and after some prompting from my German agent, I read up on the subject and expanded on the idea in writing Posthuman Condition, the second instalment to the series, five years later. It was a long process, and I thought it was great to let ideas take shape over time. The second model is directing-oriented. For instance, when I was working on A Poem in Jail, an immersive theatre piece for Tai Kwun, the designer and I had many discussions while experimenting with different set-ups.

Compared to the distance between Europe and Hong Kong, some European countries are located close to one another, which makes for convenient travel and frequent collaborations. Working with new collaborators often entails R&D. For instance, when I was commissioned to create the musical, The Damned and the Saved, for the Munich Biennale, I collaborated with Swedish composer Malin Bång. We did not know each other, and we were unable to meet up in Europe as planned because of the pandemic. We shared our works with each other online, and we had many conversations before starting work on the piece.

Lee:

I agree that R&D should be tailored to individual works. In many cases, R&D is essential in the kind of cross-disciplinary collaboration Pat-to mentioned just then. The collaborators must enter into each other’s artistic language and understand the other’s artistic expertise and creative process. Otherwise, there is a good chance that things will go off track. Most overseas organisations are more receptive to how this is not a product-oriented process; they emphasise the intrinsic value of the process, and they see art as a process of transferring, sharing, or creating knowledge. To me, R&D is crucial in that it changes traditional thinking about process and result. Organisations in Hong Kong are trying to embrace this notion, albeit at a plodding pace. After all, the local performing arts scene is consumption-oriented. Organisations in Hong Kong tend to think they are providing sufficient support for the making of a work if they offer, say, a three-month period and a lump sum grant to the creator. I understand their rationale, but this R&D model is not conducive to the development of the arts. The time it takes to create a work, as well as the creative process, varies for each work.

Yan:

I agree that it comes down to different ways of thinking. With the funding mechanism in Germany, artists are required to present performances of their works, but there is a strong emphasis on the process of discussion and mode of exchange. The Germans love discussions; they do not talk about the show's content right away since they are not consumption-oriented. If the exchange focuses solely on the performance and does not generate any meaning, the artists would think they have fallen short. They would make this kind of value judgement.

There are many opportunities to stage long-running shows in the UK and Germany. In places like Hong Kong, we present a few performances over the course of one weekend in most cases. In Germany, the move-in time is more than two weeks, with four dress rehearsals scheduled. They expect the first dress rehearsal to be messy, and they spend time refining the work on stage. Whereas in Hong Kong, we do only one dress rehearsal, and there is little room for error. An actor who performed in Life of Pi said the team was still exploring [how to deliver the performance] during the first week of the theatre run, and they had great chemistry afterwards. It shows that even for a professional theatre team, it takes time to figure out how to work together. I think this is also part of R&D.

I have heard that some German directors do not attend performances of their productions after the premieres—they have entrusted their works to the actors, and it would signal a lack of trust if they go to see the performances. On the other hand, some directors continue to revise their works after the premieres. The resident director at the Nationaltheater Mannheim (Mannheim) often attends performances of his works, including the long-running shows, and he makes constant revisions that allow the works to evolve. Sound Everywhere In The Universe, a piece I created at the Mannheim, will continue its long run in the upcoming season. Since there is going to be major cast changes, I will go back to the theatre to direct the production. I will also make some revisions to the work and continue with the R&D process.

Lee:

Every act of the performing arts takes place at a specific site. Even after the same work has been performed many times, each performance is different, and the work is never completed. That is how I like to think about live performances. There is a certain vitality and elasticity to it. It is the kind of nuance that I look for when I perform solo dance works.

Be it overseas performances, long-running shows, or work-in-progress showcases, it is important to make space for our works to develop. Sometimes when I rewatch my previous works, I am intrigued by the creative decisions I made. I can respect a work as is, or revise it when I work on a new version. It is not easy to accomplish that in Hong Kong. It would be invaluable if we could bring our works to overseas markets that afford more opportunities for revisions.

Chan:

From your observations and practices, when artists engage in these types of R&D creative projects in Hong Kong, what resources do they need in addition to time and money? Is it possible for them to break out of existing models?

Yan:

Some time ago, I attended the review meeting for Institute of Imagination, organised by Felixism Creation and supported by the Leisure and Cultural Services Department. Following an open call for proposals, the programme provided space and financial support for selected teams to explore “Creative Arts x Tech Experiments” at Cattle Depot. The teams demonstrated their works at the end. It was an excellent attempt. Yet I wonder if funding bodies can relax their expectations and not designate specific formats for showcasing project results. For instance, an artist may engage in a month-long exploration relating to the body. At the end of the period, they can demonstrate the physical exercises they have practised, such as Wing Chun, instead of presenting a performance. Naturally, the creators are fine with this. [At the review meeting], I saw that the funding body has an open mind. They see the need for change and are open to discussing various issues. This is a positive development, as the two parties can explore how to work together over time.

Lee:

I think the format depends on the intention that underlies the proposal. If an artist practises Wing Chun as a means to further their artistic development rather than the making of a work, it would make sense for them to demonstrate the results in another format than performance. However, most artists still maintain a product-oriented mindset in writing their grant proposals and are worried that proposals focusing on artistic development will not qualify. If there is a relaxation of the requirements for these grants, the artists will have more confidence in submitting the proposals they have in mind.

Different art forms or directions also call for different kinds of R&D. For instance, unlike traditional choreography which centres on top-down instructions for the dancers’ performance, contemporary devising theatre attempts to flatten its inherent power structure and make room for creative participation from dancers. This involves an R&D process through which the creators and dancers come to grasp each other’s artistic language and work.

Coming back to our practices at Unlock Dancing Plaza, we do not only provide space, financial support, and residencies but also expand our role from a curator to a facilitator in how we participate in the creative process. That is because I have experienced first-hand the importance of ongoing feedback during the R&D process. This model is more prevalent in Europe. As Pat-to mentioned, the Germans love discussions. The content may not be directly related to the work, but the discussion sheds light on varied contexts that foster further development of the work. It helps the organisation better understand the work's creative concept and how to market the production.

In curating different platforms, we constantly examine our relationships with the audiences. We set out to create a more expansive space for audiences to take part in our creative acts and to subvert their traditionally passive role as consumers who purchase tickets to performances. With the workshops we host during the “Unlock Body Lab”, we are not teaching but sharing our creative process. Further, the creative act is facilitated by the participants’ feedback and sharing of their experiences. It puts the creator and the audience on an equal footing and seeks to explore a different kind of audience participation.

Yan:

Speaking of feedback, it reminds me of [one of our practices in the theatre]. Most of the time, we would only invite people to watch the final dress rehearsal. The actors I work with in Germany think it is important to create a feedback loop early, so they would invite other professional actors to watch them rehearse in the rehearsal room. [These spectators] would share their thoughts on what works and what does not work for them, and they do not pass judgement on what is good or what is bad. In Hong Kong, we tend to talk about whether something is good or bad.

Lee:

In my observation, the [spectator’s] feedback is not necessarily a judgement on quality. It is often a matter of taste. The key is to be aware of the perspectives from which these opinions are offered, as well as what is feasible and what is not. I have seen attempts that encourage the audience to share constructive feedback at overseas performances. For instance, the creator poses questions without answering them, and the audience may answer these questions based on their viewing experiences. It helps the audience see other perspectives while examining their own observations. It also allows the creator to discover perspectives they have not previously considered and helps them develop the work. These examples may be important, although I am not sure if they are applicable to our situation in Hong Kong.

Chan:

There is not a lot of substance to most of the traditional post-performance talks in Hong Kong. The audiences are often seen as spectators who need to be spoon-fed rather than participants who can possibly offer constructive feedback. Therefore, the key is whether we can conceive productive modes of interaction that inspire audience participation and feedback.

(Translated by Nicolette Wong)

Yan Pat-to

Yan Pat-to is the playwright and director of Posthuman Condition. An active figure in Hong Kong and German theatre, Yan is the artistic director of Reframe Theatre, the house author of Germany’s Nationaltheater Mannheim (2021-2022), and an elected council member and the chairman of the Committee of Literary Arts of the Hong Kong Arts Development Council (2019-2022).

Joseph Lee

Joseph Lee is the Artistic Director of Unlock Dancing Plaza. He is actively involved in cross-disciplinary collaborations from which he draws inspiration for his artistic practice. Lee was a recipient of the Award for Young Artist at the Hong Kong Arts Development Awards in 2017.

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